Understanding the Enemy: The Difference between Fallen Angels and Demons

I’m having some major issues with my laptop’s screen that has really slowed me down. I’m in the process of finding a new laptop so I have had less time to write unfortunately. Nevertheless, I managed to find enough time over the past couple of days to put something together before the weekend.

I sometimes throw around the terms “fallen angel” and “demon” without actually defining what the difference is between them. Some people believe there is no difference between the two terms and thus use the terms interchangeably. I believe fallen angels and demons are different spiritual entities and I’ll show you why I feel this way in this blog post.

Fallen Angel
I define a fallen angel as a spiritual being created by God which fell out of Heaven into a sinful/corrupted state. Revelation 12 records the first batch of fallen angels who fell from Heaven.

  • Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
  • Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Fallen angels In the Bible are often referred to as the “sons of God” and as Satan’s ministers. The following is a short list of the capabilities of fallen angels:

Physical Visibility: Although fallen angels are spiritual beings, they appear to have the ability to physically appear to people (like their un-fallen counterparts in Genesis 19:1). Genesis 6 records the activities of the first batch of fallen angels that fell from Heaven. The sons of God (fallen angels) were able to marry human women (which strongly suggests the women were able to see them) and produced children (which further suggests that fallen angels were able to appear physically to women).

  • Gen 6:1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
  • Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

  • Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Extraterrestrial Travel: Fallen Angels apparently can travel out of this world. For instance, Satan and his fallen angels one day came to present themselves in front of God in Heaven.

  • Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Physical Transformation and the Ability to Deceive: 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 informs us that Satan’s ministers/fallen angels have the ability to transform themselves so that they can pose as ministers of righteousness.


  • 2Co 11:13 For such ones are false apostles, deceitful workers transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
  • 2Co 11:14 And did not Satan marvelously transform himself into an angel of light?
  • 2Co 11:15 It is not a great thing, then, if also his ministers transform themselves as ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.

As I’ve stated before, the Greek word for “transform” is metaschēmatizō, which means to “transform the figure of”. Therefore, fallen angels have the ability to deceive people by transforming themselves to resemble religious figures that many people believe in if they choose to do that (which they sometimes actually do).

Demon/Devil
I define a demon as an unclean spirit that seeks to possess, manipulate, and to deceive people. In the King James Version of the Bible demons are referred to as “devils”. Here are the abilities of demons...

The Ability to Control the Entity they Possess: A well-known event where Christ casted out demons from a man to a herd of swine suggest demons can control the entity they possess. The demons controlled the man’s actions and then the actions of the herd of swine.

  • Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
  • Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
  • Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
  • Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
  • Mat 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
  • Mar 5:11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
  • Mar 5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
  • Mar 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.


Ability to Inflict Harm on their Victim(s): Matthew 4:23-25 and Luke 4:40-41 suggest that demons have the power to inflict mental illness and physical diseases on their victims.

  • Mat 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.
  • Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.
  • Mat 4:25 And there followed him great multitudes of people from Galilee, and from Decapolis, and from Jerusalem, and from Judaea, and from beyond Jordan.

  • Luk 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
  • Luk 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the Son of God. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.

Unusual Physical Strength: The episode when Christ casted out demons into swine also suggests that demons can give an individual they possess unusual strength:

  • Mar 5:1 And they came over unto the other side of the sea, into the country of the Gadarenes.
  • Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
  • Mar 5:3 Who had his dwelling among the tombs; and no man could bind him, no, not with chains:
  • Mar 5:4 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.
  • Mar 5:5 And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones.


Limited Physical Movement: The Book of Revelation gives us a clue about the limitations that demons have. Revelation 9:20 tells us that people “of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk” even after being punished by plagues.

  • Rev 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
  • Rev 9:19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
  • Rev 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
  • Rev 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

The question that some people wonder is: “Why would men be worshiping devils if they are supposed to worship Antichrist, his image, and his idols?” The theory which I think best addresses this issue is that the demons/devils actually will inhabit the images and idols of Antichrist. After all, Revelation 13:15 suggest that there is some form of “life” in the image of the beast.

  • Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
  • Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

By worshiping an image or idol of the Antichrist, people will also be worshiping the demon inhabiting the object.

The demon inside the image (or idol of the beast) will be greatly limited by the entity they will inhabit. They will only be able to communicate. They will be unable to see, hear, or walk. Nevertheless, the images will have the ability to kill those do not worship the image of the beast.

  • I suspect the demon in each image or idol will help the forces of evil track the whereabouts of people with the Mark of the Beast and people without the Mark of the Beast. A demon will not have the physical capacity to kill a non-Mark wearer themselves since they will be confined to the item they inhabit. However, the demon entrapped in an idol or image can facilitate a person’s death with their ability to alert someone who does have that capacity. Perhaps the demon will have the ability to sense who and who does not have the Mark...

The Ability to Deceive: Revelation 16 and 1 Timothy chapter 4 suggest that demons have the ability to deceive people with false beliefs.

  • Rev 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
  • Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

(it’s unclear how the demons will resemble frogs so it’s unclear if they will actually appear in physical form as frogs to the kings of the earth).

  • 1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
  • 1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
  • 1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
  • 1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

(it is possible that the teachings of devils could be provided to people by religious/spiritual teachers who were possessed by devils)

An Alternative Explanation
Some people cite the unbiblical Book of Enoch to understand who demons are. The idea suggested in Enoch is that demons are the disembodied spirit of the Nephilim (giants) that perished in the great flood of Genesis.

  • Enoch 15:8 And now, the giants, who are produced from the spirits and flesh, shall be called evil spirits upon
  • Enoch 15:9 the earth, and on the earth shall be their dwelling. Evil spirits have proceeded from their bodies; because they are born from men and from the holy Watchers is their beginning and primal origin;
  • Enoch 15:10 they shall be evil spirits on earth, and evil spirits shall they be called. [As for the spirits of heaven, in heaven shall be their dwelling, but as for the spirits of the earth which were born upon the earth, on the earth shall be their dwelling.]
  • Enoch 15:11 And the spirits of the giants afflict, oppress, destroy, attack, do battle, and work destruction on the earth, and cause trouble: they take no food, but nevertheless
  • Enoch 15:12 hunger and thirst, and cause offences. And these spirits shall rise up against the children of men and against the women, because they have proceeded from them.

It’s possible that demons could be the disembodied spirits of the Nephilim, but without biblical evidence it’s impossible and unwise to treat this idea as a fact.

My Overall View on Fallen Angels vs. Demons
Overall, fallen angels and demons have some similarities. Both are evil entities that work to deceive people. I acknowledge that it’s quite possible that fallen angels and demons have even more similarities than what I recognize here. The main difference I see is that fallen angels appear to have more freedom of movement than demons do. Fallen angels do not seem reliant on having to possess something to get a task done. A fallen angel can physically transform and make themselves visible if they want to deceive a person. Meanwhile, a demon seems to have the need to possess a physical body in order to achieve a task.

Relating All of this to Aliens/UFOs
Since demons have some limitations in their movement and fallen angels appear to not have such limitations it’s far more likely that aliens are low-level fallen angels than demons. However, this may be semantics more than anything because both fallen angels and demons are formidable foes for the ordinary person. Nevertheless, if you encounter a demon or an alien/fallen angel, you can scare them away by using Christ’s name.

228 comments: (+add yours?)

Anonymous said...

I try and read your research and blogs as much as possible good work by the way. I seem to be interested in the Antichrist topics. I'm curious as to your take on if Hitler could have been possessed by demon or high level fallen angel. You made a reference that he was possessed by a high ranking entity right?

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I have documentation from witnesses who saw Hitler first-hand (like Joseph Goebbels). These witnesses wondered if Hitler was actually human. These eye-witnesses describe what amounts to Hitler being possessed by something very evil and something quite powerful. Therefore, I am 100% confident that Hitler was possessed.

What's amazing is that occult sources suggest that Hitler was possessed as well. According to the messengers used by the spiritual forces of evil, Hitler was influenced by the spirit of Antichrist. Hitler's abilities far exceeded Joseph Stalin's (another man who was possessed) so it's not out of the realm of possibility that something very high up had a role in influencing Hitler.

My report about the evil within Adolf Hitler can be found at this link:

http://www.prophecyproof.org/evilhitler/part1


(You can also find a version where I do not include evil sources from this link:

http://www.prophecyproof.org/evilhitler/bible1 )

flobi said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Anonymous said...

I have been wondering about this topic quite a bit lately, interestingly enough, and I happened to come across your blog quite accidentally... It's funny that you mentioned the Book of Enoch, because I just recently discovered this writing, and it's only since then that I have even contemplated there being any difference between demons and fallen angels. My entire church life did not ever present me with any reason to ask such questions, their interchangeability was always taken for granted...

There is still much I don't understand about demons, and why there would be these wicked spirits that long to have bodies in the first place... And while I'm not totally convinced that the Book of Enoch is true, I have a hard time seeing where it contradicts the rest of scripture (and you already mentioned Genesis 6, and the literal interpretation of those verses is usually the biggest objection most people would have with the content of the Book of Enoch...) Do you not accept the Book of Enoch as true, simply because it was excluded from the biblical "canon"? How is it that Jude directly quotes it, calling it "prophecy" (i.e. a message from God)? Didn't the majority of early Christians accept it as prophecy? (and wasn't the "canon" of scripture supposed to be merely an acknowledgement of what was already accepted as scripture by most people? so much for that idea...)

Anyway, still have lots of questions, but overall I'm just feeling encouraged that I'm not the only one who's interested in talking about these things!

D

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The Book of Enoch has some teachings that are completely unbiblical like how there is an angel that deals with matters of eternal life. The contradictory elements within the Book of Enoch is one reason why I cannot take the book as something I can quote comfortably.

The fact that the Book of Enoch is not a part of the Bible's cannon is a big deal. I believe that if God wanted us to take the Book of Enoch seriously as the books in the Bible it would have been included in the cannon.

There's the possibility that Enoch had teachings which were passed down from generation to generation which the writers of the New Testament knew about. However, these teachings do not exactly have to be linked precisely with the Book of Enoch. The Book of Enoch could have just been an attempted to record some of those teachings.

For more:

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2010/05/enigmatic-book-of-enoch.html

Anonymous said...

Yes, I have heard these objections before. Particularly the one about the "satanic" teaching about an angel who is "set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life”. I can see why that would be something we should be treat with a great deal of scrutiny, as you are absolutely right, Jesus IS the only mediator between God and man!

However, we should also be cautious not to make quick assumptions as to what it means by "set over" the repentance of men... What does "set over" really mean? It doesn't go into any more detail, and there's nothing in the text which would suggest that this means that an angel is actually the one choosing who repents and who doesn't, or acting in any sort of judgemental role... In the Bible, we see angels "set over" all kinds of things, but this merely means that they have some sort of "administrative" role. We see angels being involved in the 7 trumpets, the seven bowls of God's wrath, even the Great White Throne Judgement, but this involvement doesn't mean that the angels themselves are usurping God's role as Judge or Savior...

Look at Revelation 8:3,4...

"Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand."

An angel carries the prayers of the saints and presents them to God? Isn't that a case of an angel trying to act as a mediator betweeen man and God? No... He simply has been given a task, and he's carrying it out in obediance. The fact that this angel is "presiding over the prayers of the saints" doesn't mean that he is somehow interfering in God's direct relationship to mankind... The angel here is not an intermediary, (although someone could make that accusation, as easily as they could about anything in the Book of Enoch...)

Also Revelation 14:6 says,

"Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth—to every nation, tribe, language and people."

What? An angel has the eternal gospel, to give to everyone on Earth??? But the Gospel originates from God Himself! Isn't this blasphemous too? No... Because once again, this is an example of an angel being given an "administrative role". It doesn't mean that an angel is the originator of the Gospel...

Yes, this David Stuart guy does seem pretty offended by the idea that any particular book that might be true could actually be "excluded" from the canon, and honestly, I have struggled with that ramification as well, and in the end, we have to ask some tough questions... Did GOD actually instruct anyone to compose an official "canon"? Was that an instruction that Jesus gave before He left? Did any of the apostles give any indication that they believed there needed to be an "official version" of what would become the "New Testament", or did they preach the truth of the Gospel itself, relying on the Holy Spirit to give hearers discernment and open their hearts to the truth..?

Anonymous said...

(continued...)

Yes, I understand the implications if we were to suggest that the "scholars" who canonized the NT made a mistake... (oops!) Because if there really is such a thing as a "canon", then you can't have "mistakes"! To admit a mistake would be to destroy confidence in your entire scholarly authority. But Jesus, nor any of the apostles, ever instructed us to turn to a bunch of scholars to tell us what was really from God, and what was not. Did He...?

Having read the article you linked to by David Stuart, it makes me wonder if he's actually even read the Book of Enoch, because he resorts to calling it things like "a bunch of mumbo jumbo" and so on... (there's some astute criticism for ya...) But the more you read, the more you see why he really rejects this book, just like most other people... Not because it teaches some gnostic gospel (quite the contrary!) or because it teaches a vague Christ (it doesn't, it actually points to Christ more directly than most O.T. prophetic books!), but because he already rejects the idea that angels could have offspring with humans... I understand, because I was raised to think such a thing was "absurd" as well. Such an idea is laughable, right? I'd heard all the same verses quoted that he quotes, (angels don't marry, etc.) and that was that... But the more I looked at Genesis 6, the more I could not accept the explanation I had been given my whole life (about the sons of "righteous Seth" marrying the "wicked daughters of Cain"...) The old explanation just doesn't hold up. The text of Genesis 6 is clearly saying that angels came down, took wives and had giant children (sorry, that's just what is says! like it or not!) And of course, the Bible says angels do not marry, that's why it was so wicked for these angels to do this!!! And of course the bible says that there are different kinds of bodies, celestial and terrestrial etc., (1st Corinthians 15:39-40), that's why it was unnatural for these fallen angels to do this, and that's why they had freakish kids!

We must remember too, that just because angels have "celestial bodies", this doesn't mean they can't interact with the physical world. In Genesis 19:3, it says that Lot made the angels dinner, and they ate it... (?) Do angels need to eat? Wouldn't think so... But can they? Apparently, they can...

Anyways... I'm not trying to say that the Book of Enoch IS scripture... I'm just saying that if it's to be rejected, then it's not based on any of the objections made by Stewart...

However... One thing still puzzles me... You say that you now reject the Book of Enoch as having any truth, yet that leaves me wondering then how you arrived at this conclusion that fallen angels and demons are two seperate things... Where in the Bible do you find evidence to suggest this distinction? Just asking out of curiousity...

D

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The New Testament talks about demons and fallen angels in different terms. In verses like 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 1:6 the actual Greek term for angel is used: "aggelos" when discussing fallen angels. The Greek word in references to devils in the New Testament like in Mark 5 is "diabolos". If they were the same entities the Greek terms should be very similar if not the same.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I will say this... IF Enoch has anything that can be gleaned from it, it'll probably be the details about the fallen angels back in Noah's times.

I agree with you on Genesis 6:

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2010/05/nephilim-part-1-past.html

Anonymous said...

Interesting....

Well can I then ask, (since we're on the topic, and I've been wrestling with this lately...), what in your view are the origins of these two distinct kinds of fallen beings? How did we get fallen angels, and then seperately demons? I'm only asking because my whole life it was always presented to me that they were one and the same thing, and so now to consider this idea of them being different, it makes me wonder how that could be...

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I have a giant Bible study panorama focusing on Angelology. The late Christian author of the panorama was an expert on angels (good and bad), Satan, and demons. The author differentiated between fallen angels and demons.

The author wrote that Satan led a revolt in Heaven where he tried to supplant God. Apparently some angels joined Satan leading to their fall.


With regards to demons, the author stated that the origin of demons is unclear. I acknowledge too that it is unclear how demons originated based on what is in the Bible. The Book of Enoch’s explanation of the origin of demons is possible, but it is unwise to be dogmatic about that.

Anonymous said...

some seem to think that demons could be the dead Nephilim. Where the angels came down and mated with human women and created giants.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Yes, some people who believe in that cite the Book of Enoch's chapter about them. I think it is possible that demons could be dead Nephillim...

Anonymous said...

Interesting article. I have in fact seen both demons and fallen angels (not by choice), and it fits both the scriptures and what you have written.

I have a bit of doubt for the nephilim theory, since John 3:6 says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit." However, the context of that scripture is being born-again as a Christian, so it may not be specifically applicable to fallen angels, or may not have been at that time in history.

The fallen angels I saw were in the lives of professing "spirit-filled" Christians who were practicing heavy-duty occult stuff. The people connected to them (including me at that time) came under deception not just through regular demons but through fallen angels too, appearing as angels of light in full angelic form and giving people messages supposedly from God. It was an awful mess, but due to the level of deception it took time to become clear. What made me suspicious all along, though, was the frequent appearance of very weird-looking angels that other people assured me were on the Lord's side. Those "angels" failed the simplest test - the 1 John 4 test.

Since God got me out of that wreck, He can get anyone else out of it who truly desires to be free. God bless you all!

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Thank you so much for sharing your story! That's an amazing story you tell! It's also a warning to all Christians to not practice the occult. Stay way from it!

Robert said...

This is a interesting subject that I still sometimes ponder over.
It was only last year I realised that there were different groups of fallen angels.

What started me thinking is where I read that God had already got some of them in chains until the end of the age. i.e some is also chained in the river Euphrates.

This just doesn't make sense if you do not use the extra-biblical books like Enoch.

Things are certainly not as straight forward as we might think. There is a lot going on that we don't know anything about.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I agree there is still more to learn.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Is there anything you feel comfortable sharing which makes you wonder whether there are other types of fallen entities? 

Thanks for reading

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I guess I may have answered my own questions after thinking about the events that I just described.  The "creature beside the house" for lack of a better name, could have been a demon, since no physical body was seen, and all I heard were the sounds and felt the presence.  The "fondling in the dark" experience could have also been a demon, since I've heard that spirits can do some minor poltergeist type of activity (knocking stuff over or moving things around the room).  As far as the "long, blond, woman's hair on my bed" experience, again there was no body seen, but one was felt (at least once in a sexual dream), and there was physical evidence (or what appeared to be) left from a human body that seemed to match the woman in my dream (if I recall accurately enough).  However, I can't rule out for sure that the hair was not from some other source.  

In the case of the other sightings that others have had of such creatures as Bigfoot, it seems that there are enough reports around that it seems credible, even as UFO sightings are believed to be (at least a percentage of them) real.  Do you think these are just fallen angels causing mischief, or do you think it is something else?  I know there are several passages in scripture where angels take human form, but what about "other than human" form?  I recall an experience reported by a rather famous person (an actress named Gina Gershon), which was documented on a TV program, that describes a spirit entity attacking her at night and attempting to choke her.  She said it first appeared in the form of a fog or mist, but then the shape of a head appeared and then two hands that were actually choking her for a while.  In this case it would have to be an angel, right?  Since demons can't just manifest physically out of nowhere, or can they?

A couple more speculative thoughts before I leave.  It occurred to me a few days ago, after thinking about it for awhile, that angels could utilize demons in some situations, at least it seems plausible to me.  In other words, an angel could invite one or more demons inside of its transformed physical body, thereby utilizing some of their power, possibly enhancing its own powers or abilities, although I think scripture indicates that angels are more powerful than demons, so why would they need to?  I can already think of one such example from Rev 16:13.  

The other thought I had involves placing yourself in the shoes of the enemy, or thinking like a criminal for a moment.  Suppose you had a limited number of fallen angels at your disposal (let's say at least 70) (Duet 32:8), but you had many more (let's say millions) of disembodied spirits.  Wouldn't you try to get the demon spirits into as many important human bodies as possible to gather intel from them and to gain some level of remote control over them, and save your angels for spec ops type of missions where a rapid response is needed?  

Well, let me stop before I get way out in left field here.  As you can see, it is sort of fun to speculate, but that's really all it is until God's word sheds some light upon the subject.  Thanks for your insight, and I appreciate your blog.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The
following reply is just some of my speculation…


 


I would
not be surprised if fallen angels could take on a form other than human.  I do believe “aliens” are fallen angels since
I’ve heard about how some aliens look human while others look non-human. 


 


I’m not
sure whether a fallen angel could invite demons into a transformed body to
enhance its abilities.  I don’t know how to
evaluate that theory using biblical evidence. 



 


With
regard to your last thought, I can definitely see the enemy operating in that manner.  They would probably want to save their elite
for special assignments and use the others on other tasks. 


 


You
mentioned to view the enemy as a criminal. 
Since you have a military background perhaps you may find it interesting
for a moment to think of the enemy operating like a very sophisticated military organization or intelligence agency.  Just offering another way to view the enemy...

Connie said...

Here's something to consider.  Israel did not kill all the inhabitants that they were supposed to when they entered the land.  There is much evidence that the hybrid giants or what I call nephilim did not cease to exist, but moved first north then over to the Americas.  Think of all the myths about giants and demi-gods that exist from Europe.  Then consider the legends of the American Indians that speak of a people who were giant in stature and had six fingers.  That last is important as the Bible describes some of these giants as also having six fingers.  It is apparently part of their DNA.  As the white man came over and conquered the Americas, these giants "disappeared".  I have an idea where they went, but I am not offering that speculation up at the moment.  In recent months it is interesting that a mountain man from Tennessee made the news as he claims to have seen not once, but several times a 10' giant with long beautiful hair and (get this) six fingers.  The news reporters scoffed, but the sheriff in the town said that he had heard reports about just this sort of thing ever since he was a child.  These creatures have angelic DNA (albeit fallen angelic).  We don't know the intelligence and power at their disposal.  There is also much evidence through the ancient records that the fallen angels not only procreated with man, but experimented on crossing DNA of multiple species, not only animal with animal, but man with animal. This type of experimenting with genetics did not stop with them; it was being carried on by the Nazis with people like Mengele.  Cloning is not a new science, believe it or not.  It has been tried for years. Maybe this will give you food for thought.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Thanks for your insight.  I agree with you on each point.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Interesting thoughts to think about

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Speaking of Legends, I'm originally from Minnesota, and we have several giants depicted in statues, such as "Big Ole" which is a giant, 28ft tall, blond haired, Viking statue in Alexandria, MN.  Another that I remember was "Paul Bunyan", who was supposed to be a lumberjack further up north.  There is some evidence that the Vikings may have actually made landings up around that area before Columbus had discovered the Americas.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

The following is a response I gave to someone's posting on a different blog site.  Basically that person feels that 1/3 of the fallen angels are known as demons/nephilim.  I am including it here, since it deals with this topic, and I hope to stimulate some speculation and possibly get some answers to some of my questions.  Here is my response:









I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with
the specifics of your posting.  Here is why: 1/3 of the fallen angels are NOT
also known as demons/nephilim, because the bible draws a distinction
between all three. First, angels (sons of God) left their proper
abode, took human bodies, and came into the daughters of men and
produced the Nephilim (Gen 6:4, Jud 1:6-7). However, Nephilim (also known as
Anakim, Rephaim, Emim, Zuzim, Zamzummin)(Deu 2:10-11, 20, Num 13:33, Deu 9:2, Gen 14:5), unlike the
fallen angels who created them, could be physically destroyed (Deu
2:21, Jos 11:21-22, Deu 3:11, Gen 14:5, Jos 13:12), but their spirits
(not being from God) were not eligible for resurrection to heaven
(Isa 26:14), so they were destined to roam the earth, seeking
embodiment (Luk 11:24). This last state of the Nephilim (spirit) is speculative, but it seems to fit with
scripture and explains where some evil spirits may have come from,
and why they seek embodiment. One possible explanation for the
Nephilim spirits not remaining in Sheol, where scripture says the spirits of the dead go (Isa 14:9, Job 26:5-6, Psalm 88), is that Jesus went and preached to them, along with the OT
Saints (Abraham's Bosom), before releasing them in a type of
resurrection back to the earth, so that they could fulfill the plan
of God dealing with the ungodly.




Just exactly why the evil spirits (from
the Nephilim) are not still in Sheol, where scripture says the spirits of the dead go (unrighteous),
is the part that I'm trying to understand now. If my theory is to
make sense, then I have to find the
answer for this question. I think it could possibly be that
they were released back to earth after Jesus went to preach to them
in Sheol right before His resurrection. This is highly speculative,
and I may be way off, but I'll be back to post scriptures for this.




Okay, here are some scriptures that I'm
wrestling with regarding how or if the spirits of Rephaim (Nephilim)
could possibly be on the earth now, instead of in Sheol. Job 26:5,
Psa 88:10, Isa 14:9, Isa 26:14, Isa 26:19, Rev 16:13-14, Luk 11:24
(here is an example of an unclean spirit that was never confined
after leaving, and this last example was before Jesus' visit to Sheol
to preach to or resurrect any
spirit)




Compare Deu 3:13 with Psa 22:12, Eze
39:18

d. johansen said...

Demons are the disembodied souls of the offspring of the fallen angels and women.  With the Giants being half fallen angel their souls were not alound into heaven there fore left here on earth to roam and terrorize humans.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

This is an issue that is likely going to require a lot of time and thought. I just looked at a Bible panorama written by a specialist in the subject manner and he does not address the issue. It might take me awhile to come up with some ideas of my own

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Thanks taking the trouble to research this.  In the last few days I did come across another passage that struck me in a rather strange way.  I'm not quite sure what to make of it.  John 5:28-29 mentions two different resurrections occurring at what appears to be a specific point in time.  I just got done using the Blue Letter Bible to look up the meanings in the Greek, and I'm still left in the dark and kind of puzzled by it.  Really, that entire chapter is quite interesting, and there are a number of things in there.  Whenever Jesus speaks, it is always profound in many ways, of course.  After all, He is the Word of God.

Connie said...

Interestingly, in reading more of the legends of the Native Americans, the giants they speak of were Nordic in appearance.  Supposedly they could wrestle buffalo to the ground which would make them quite large.  They were cannibals and used to eat the natives, so the natives attacked one group who were living in caves and killed most if not all of them. The Norse myths are similar in legend to the Roman and Greek myths.  This might indicate that the same people are responsible for the source of these legends, and which would confirm the idea that these giants who were "god/demigods" did migrate north and then over to the Americas.  There are also accounts of the European explorers running into giants in South America.  This would explain the gigantic ruins at places like Machu Picchu where huge multi-ton stones were moved to the tops of mountains from miles away. These giants would also explain the accounts from people who were abducted by "aliens" who say that one group are very tall Nordic types.  Too much coincidence to be imaginary.

Connie said...

 For some bizarre reason, I can't post a comment unless I post it as a reply, so I will just post this here.  I came across an ebook that contains a great deal of information on a whole lot of things related to end times.  One of the chapters deals with the "alien"/nephilim subject.  The other chapters deal with things such as the Illuminati, the Luciferian wolves in the Christian church, weather control, etc.  It is a book, so is fairly long to read.  I have known most of the information contained in it for a long time, but I do not know how much you are familiar with.  The part about the abuse of children within Satanic cults is horrible, but as someone who has had much interaction with the occult over my life, I can tell you that this information is valid.  I knew a family whose daughter was used as a breeder to have babies for human sacrifice.  The information is not for the faint of heart and may be too much for any new Christians to handle.  You may find it of interest though.  It is found at http://themurkynews.blogspot.com/.  As always, I know you will check on everything said to verify it and not just believe whatever is written, so I do not have to caution you to not just accept everything as truth, however your other readers may need the warning.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Thanks for the link! I'm not sure why you can post a comment by itself. Perhaps it's a temporary issue since others seem to be able to post separate comments without a problem.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I have heard the story about the buffalo before, as well.  Sounds like there could be some link to the Nordics.  I would suppose (although I haven't checked yet) that Norwegian legend would address this, if that is where some Nephillim are alleged to have come from?  You have inspired to kind of poke around and investigate the Tennessee stories, as well as the Norse legends now.  Thanks for your input, Connie.  God bless.

Connie45 said...

I think the link to the Nordics may come through their god legends of Thor and that whole group.  It would not be difficult for Nephilim who were large and probably had powers (or at least technology that looked like powers to a non-technological people - think Thor's hammer) to convince people they were gods.  I think the Roman/Greek/Nordic legends of gods who were larger than life all really reflect the same group of people, as many of the stories are quite similar. Some of the myths may be stories of what happened in the antediluvian world that Noah's sons passed on to their children, but many may be from after the flood when the Nephilim again lived in the Mesopotamia area.  Some no doubt migrated north leaving these legends behind them.  Then this northern group must have migrated over to North America, via the Arctic route while some must have migrated to South America across the ocean directly from Africa, which explains the giant "inexplicable" ruins that are similar to the pyramids of Egypt. (which obviously were built by giants who either could haul these stones or had the technology or supernatural powers to do it).  It's the only explanation for all the evidence and stories.  There seems to be a difference of sorts between the giants reported to have been seen by the early European explorers in South America and the giants that the North American Natives describe. There being  two different groups (northern versus Egyptian-like) would explain this difference too.  There is much interesting information to be had on all this.  The archeological evidence from the pyramids in both Egypt and S.A., as well as the mound-builders in N.A., not to mention places like Stonehenge, is very interesting and points to this conclusion, as the only other option is to believe in extra-terrestrials as the world thinks of them, and which we know is not truth.  What is also of interest is that many of the reports from "alien abductees" say that some of the "aliens" that took them are larger than human-sized Nordic looking people.  Too much coincidence here.  I wonder if any of them ever noticed how many fingers these Nordic "aliens" have.  There seems to be a genetic code for Nephilim that includes an extra finger and toe on each hand and foot.  That's both Scriptural as well as first hand reports from everyone from the Native American legends to this guy in Tennessee recently.  Again, too much coincidence to be ignored.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Just throwing this out there… I know of a former Major
League Baseball pitcher who had six fingers and six toes.  He was around 6 ft 5 inches.  His condition seems to be genetic as
his grandfather also had six fingers and six toes.  According to this article about the pitcher, “polydactyl”-the
condition where there are extra fingers or toes-occurs about once in every 500 births: http://bit.ly/r2GyEJ

Connie45 said...

There are also some babies who are basically giant babies and pre-school toddlers that are 4' tall.  I even saw a giant baby myself once.  He couldn't have been more than a year old if that, but was easily 3 feet tall. Poor mom carrying him around. You have to wonder if there is some DNA in these people's lineage that is not quite human.  On one Native American's website that I visited while researching this, the man told how either his grandfather or great-grandfather, can't remember which, was a giant that fit this description.  His Native American grandmother (or great-grandmother) had married this man and told her grandson all about him. He had come from a different place. There are people in the world who may have this DNA and the traits are skipping generations and then popping up unexpectedly in people who have no idea of this in their heredity.  The scientific world applies a medical term to these things because they have no other explanation, but that does not mean it is a mutation in human genes. Maybe it is additional DNA from nephilim genes.  They've certainly been around long enough to taint the gene pool. Even the god myths speak of the fact that they (the half-human/half gods) married normal women (as does the Bible).  After the Flood there was nothing stopping these genes from getting into the human gene pool, as God did not destroy all of mankind again, nor did the Israelites destroy all of the giants. 

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The giant baby you mentioned reminds me of the giant baby that was in the news recently. Last month, a Texas mother gave birth to a 16 lbs and 1 ounce boy who was 2 feet long and had a 17 inch chest. He is reportedly the largest baby to ever be born in Texas.

Connie45 said...

She has my sympathies.  That must have been a difficult pregnancy and birth.

Robert said...

Does anyone believe that a christian can marry and mate with a Tare which would be a seed of Satan.  As this would make any offspring doomed to hell.

Connie45 said...

Who said anything about a Christian marrying these people?  True Christians tend to be in the minority in the world and those who truly belong to the Lord generally only marry those who also belong to the Lord.  He is able to keep the bloodlines clean. He did it for Noah.  Do you not know any Christians who were stopped from marrying a person they wanted to marry?  I was stopped myself, and it was from the Lord's intervention.  I never knew what happened to cause it's ending, and obviously I do not know that it was for that reason, but it ended abruptly with no explanation and I accepted it as the Lord's doing and will. Often people who are not Christians have the same thing happen. Is it because God is protecting not necessarily them but a future progeny that will be His within that person's bloodline? We don't understand the workings of God. There are also many who call themselves Christians who are not. God looks on the heart and knows the real truth, so if a person who is supposedly a Christian gets involved in these bloodlines, whether knowingly or not, I would wonder about the true state of their spiritual affairs.  I do not know how God takes care of this problem, but it is obvious that the nephilim bloodline still exists in the world.  The physical evidence is there. 

Connie45 said...

It just dawned on me to mention this in regard to the marrying problem.  That is probably why God made the rule that both Jews and Christians not marry outside of the faith.

Robert said...

Thanks for the reply Connie.  Very wise words.

I only asked the question because of the total madness that I see around me.  A lot of people are also lonely and desparate for a partner and as most of the congregations are rather dead these days i.e not very deep in God- people tend to take matters into their own hands and marry whoever they can link up with. I have seen it first hand that's why I was wondering about this.

I totally agree with you that not everyone that say they are christians are true christians and I do believe that God is able to preserve is own seed.

Don't forget there are two scenarios here. 

 1) The tares who are satan's seed which would include all the fallen angels and their seeds down through the generations. Therefore if we believe that God is preserving his seed all the inter breeding would have to be with the tares and not the wheat.

2) True Christians can be used by demons/devils but cannot physically mate with them. In these cases in may be construed that they are not true christians at all but they are as in the case of the Apostle Peter.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I just want to mention that one of the chapters I’ve been
examining recently is Ezekiel 32.  I've read some say that “mighty that are fallen” in Ezekiel 32:27 is “gibborim nophelim” in Hebrew which almost spells
out "nephilim". This part of the verse seems to be somewhat controversial...

Connie45 said...

Gibborim can also be translated giants.  I have studied some other passages where that word has been used, in relation to the end times and it seems to imply an army that is either superhuman or not quite human.  As Ez. 32 7-8 seems to refer to the heavenly signs that occur in Revelation, it seems that this is speaking of that time too.  What is interesting is the Norse myths of Thor and Ragnarok say that the "gods" will be returning to earth at the time of Ragnarok to fight again.  Ragnarok being the counterpart of Armageddon.  If one starts looking at the Scriptural passages that speak of a mighty (gibborim) army or the mighty ones, one sees that there seems to be something a little more powerful than humans being spoken of in them. Usually people take it to mean just a really strong or famous army of humans and interpret it as such, but when you start looking at the passages through a different eyeglass, you start to see they may be referring to a nephilim army.  It would not surprise me to find that it is that to which these passages refer, although one can only speculate.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Interestingly, the Mayan talk about the "return of our ancestors", which one person who works directly with the Mayan say are the nephillim...

Ezekiel 32 is quite an interesting chapter. The latter portion of the chapter looks like there's End Times potential too. 

Connie45 said...

The Hopi Indians also talk of the return of the ancestors from the stars.  As the original angels that fell did come from the "stars" it would make sense that they believe the returning ancestors would come from there too.  The controversial translation of the Sumerian hieroglyphs by Sitchin also talks about the return of the "aliens" from the planet Nibiru.  In both the Hopi and Sitchin cases the ancestors are reptilian in form (the Hopi say they are descended from snake people or something similar to that, if I remember correctly) , which is interesting as the Maya also have reptilian persona (as well as the white skinned golden haired gods) in their ancient drawings (as do the Egyptians).  That would mean that there might be more than Nordic nephilim to be expected to make an appearance.  The Orient also has a belief that they are descended from snake god-people. Satan is supposedly reptilian in appearance and I am sure there probably are angels or demons who have that appearance.  Of interest is that the so-called "aliens" present themselves as various types depending on the "planet" from which they come.  There are the Nordics, the grays, and the reptilians.  In some of the Norse mythologies they speak of little people (whose description is similar to the grays) that serve or work with the Norse gods.  The gray "aliens" often are said to keep company with the Nordics by the "alien abductees".  It's just strange the way all these myths, legends, hieroglyphs, and "alien" appearances all seem to be so eerily similar. What is also interesting is that I found a sort of connection between the myth of Santa and his elves and the Norse myths with their little people.  As it appears that the nephilim that migrated north into Europe kept going north it makes one think of the myth of Santa (who has magical powers) living at the North Pole with his elves.  People think myths and legends and strange creatures such as fauns and centaurs are just imagination, but there is much truth behind all myths and legends.  When you read the description in Revelation of the locusts who have the body prepared like a horse and a face of a man you can think centaur.  Today demons appear to people as aliens.  Years ago people may have called these angels/demons by names which we attribute today to being mythological creatures.  The desert goat devil mentioned in the
Bible probably looks like a faun.  People today do not acknowledge the reality of the spiritual world the way they did years ago.  All these spiritual entities now pass for "aliens", but they are very real and will most likely take part in the greatest battle between God and Satan at the end of this age as they have a vested interest in the outcome (which we know will not go their way).

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The similarities between all these legends, myths, etc you've mentioned are quite interesting. Perhaps I'll take a special look at these similarities and others when I'm done with this major Bible studying I'm working on.  My suspicion is that these predictions concerning the coming of these entities may be part of an effort to condition people to expect for something to actually happen in the future and to deceive people about what they'll be dealing with.  In the Mayan's case, their prophecies claim that the coming "ancestors" will be "good" entities.  In my opinion, these "ancestors" will be evil entities.

Connie45 said...

There's no question the entities will be evil, as that is exactly what they are.  The good angelic host does not appear to us in that way, because God does not want angelic worship.  I agree that these prophecies were laid down centuries ago, as Satan had his plan laid out way back then and was conditioning people right from the start.  From what I have been able to glean, it appears that they may play the good/bad scenario with one group promising to help us fight the other group.  What I have found so far seems to point to the Nordics & possibly the grays helping us to fight the reptilians. That way we would trust the one group. The possibility does exist of course that these groups actually hate each other and the fight between them would be real.  As some are half-human and some are probably angelic (fallen), there is probably some animosity between the groups.  That is exactly what the Roman, Greek, and Nordic myths all teach, that the "younger" gods and the "older" gods who were their parents did not get along and there was a war between the two. The only thing we do know for certain is that creatures from out of the abyss will torment man, so people will see non-human creatures sometime during those seven years, and we know that people will not assume they are demons or fallen angels, they will assume they are aliens, as that is what they have been programmed to believe.  What else will go on in the world to set up that scenario does not seem to be explicitly given in Scripture, so we can only hypothesize based on the myths, etc. that Satan has taken so much time to lay down.  He obviously has had a reason for doing this, so we shouldn't just ignore the information.  We need to see if it can fit any way into what we do know will actually happen from Scripture. Most people assume the passage in Daniel about the toes made of a mix of clay and iron is different nations coming together.  Of late, and I think there is merit in this thought, some are saying that because it says that they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men, it must mean something other than man is mingling itself with the seed of man, because it would not make sense to refer to another nation as something other than the seed of man, because all humans are the seed of man.  Therefore whatever mixes itself with the seed of man, is not the seed of man.  Many people who claim to be abducted say that they have had sperm or eggs taken, or women have been implanted and then the fetus is taken out of the womb, and sometimes shown to them later when they are children. The use of the word clay in the passage in Daniel becomes even more interesting when knows that the word Titan (which refers to the Greek gods) apparently implies by its etymology "white clay men".  Granted all interesting coincidences, but it makes one wonder.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Daniel 2:43 is a very interesting verse. I feel the argument that "they" is a non-human entity is one that merits serious consideration.

Fernando Alvarez36 said...

Unbiblical? How is an angel dealing with matters of eternal life unbiblical? At adam and eves fall ,did God not place a cherub and a sword to guard the way to the tree of life. I dont understand how there is confusion here. Scripture is very clear on this. The tree of life is Jesus. The sword is the gospel of Jesus. The cherub is obviously a being that allows people access to the tree of life. Everyone knows that! Lol!!

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The reference is Enoch 40:9, which (wrongly) claims that there is an angel in charge of repentance and eternal life. Enoch 40:9 (wrongly) suggests that there is another mediator in the matters of eternal life.  This contradicts the belief that the only way a person can obtain eternal life is through Jesus Christ.    

Excuse me if that does not make a lot of sense. It's late... Another explanation of what I'm trying to convey is available in the following article: 

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2010/05/enigmatic-book-of-enoch.html

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I just revisited this blog again, and I had another thought on this.  Some believe that there may have been millions or even billions of people on earth between Gen 1:1 and 1:2 (in other words the Gap Theory).  There are two particular passages that are often used as evidence for this are Isaiah 14:12-15, and Ezekiel 28:12-19.  Could some of the disembodied spirits have come from this destructive event?  I'm not sure, and it would depend on the activity that took place before Satan's fall (if one believes the Gap Theory at all).  I guess the reason I thought of this is because I'm in a bit of a pickle trying to explain how or why Nephilim spirits would be allowed to just continue to roam the earth after those particular Nephilim were destroyed.  Why weren't these spirits confined in Sheol?  I know some would say that a Nephilim spirit did not come from God in the first place, so they are not the same as men's souls, thus Sheol doesn't apply.  In Luke 11:24 Jesus explains that the evil spirit can leave the body of it's host and then come back with more of it's own kind, and this was before the ressurection that took place after Jesus went to preach to those kept in the underworld.  So, the mysterious question remains.  Where did the evil spirits come from, and why are they not confined?  For that matter, I guess there are fallen angels not confined yet either, so I shouldn't be surprised at this.  It's getting late and my brain is clouding over to where I can't think straight.  I'd better end it here before I get way off.  Okay one more question.  Why did Jesus give permission for the legion of demons in the demoniac man of Gadarene to endter the swine, and why did they then immediately rush over the ledge and into the sea?  This has puzzled me for some time.  Part of me isn't surprised to see demons acting as crazy and destructive as they are, but part of me is wondering if there was something about the sea that attracted them?  Why would they destroy their hosts so quickly if they would then be "searching for rest and finding none", unless the dry places were not a problem here, because of the sea?  Ever thought about this?  Alright, I'm going now, I promise.  Enough craziness for one night.  As you can see, I must have lots of time on my hands to be pondering such things.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I have not forgotten about your questions.  In fact, I’ve spent some time recently trying
to come up with some answers.  These are challenging questions. A Bible study panorama I have on the topic of angels and demons says hardly anything on the origins of demons.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Here
are some things to think about:


 


The
Hebrew word for “dead” in Isaiah 14:9 (râphâ) is the same word used
to translate the words: “Rephaim”,
“dead”, and “deceased” in the Bible. 
Albert Barnes has a lengthy discussion about how the word is translated in
different places in the Bible in his commentary on Isaiah 14:9. 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bib/cmt/barnes/isa014.htm


 


Isaiah
14:9 is a Bible prophecy verse which relates to the End Times.  The verse suggests that the “râphâ”
in sheol will meet the End Times King of Babylon after he is defeated.  Given the multiple meanings of the word râphâ, one could say that there are Rephaim/Nephilim in sheol who will
meet the End Times King of Babylon.


 


I mention this because you say that the Nephilim are not
in sheol at this present time.  If you do
not believe “râphâ”
in Isaiah 14:9 refers to the Rephaim/Nephilim then what makes you think “râphâ”
in Isaiah 26:14 refers to the Rephaim/Nephilim? 


 


I
provide these observations in hopes that they help you with the questions on
your mind.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Interesting.  Thanks for the Albert Barnes commentary link.  

Well, you may be right (Nephilim being kept in Sheol), in light of the alternate translations of this word.  I guess if I were deciding based soley on what Barnes had to say, I might lean towards the view that the word simply means dead (as in departed spirits of normal, unsaved, dead men).  There are times where double meanings are used prophetically (Isa 14:12-17 and Eze 28:12-19 seem to speak of the earthly ruler, but go beyond that to Satan).  It appears that Barnes doesn't pick up on this, but others do.  I.E., it could be that both are correct (Nephilim spirits and unsaved souls of men were confined in Sheol.  Also, it seems that God likes to operate in prophetic cycles, meaning that events repeat themselves, so that Isa 14:9 could refer to both Beltashazzar, the AntiChrist.

Another interesting speculation that I keep running across in scripture is the notion that there may have been a release (or resurrection) of some of the dead from Sheol in conjuction with Abraham's Bosom at the same time that Jesus went and preached to them immediately after His crucifixion.  I just came across another verse that seems strange.  Isa 26:19 contains the word 'rapha' at the very end.  I believe this verse is an O.T. reference to the rapture of the church, but why is 'rapha' used here?  

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I’m not sure why “rapha” is used there. I think the way the word is translated to mean “dead”
makes sense given the context of the verse.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Very interesting passage, by the way.  I'm examining the ramifications of this as it relates to what's happening in the Middle East right now.  Has this destruction ever happened to Egypt yet in past history?  It's like Ezekiel goes on a tour of Sheol and he includes some revealing descriptions of what is down there.  The question is whether some of this is yet future?

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I think you are right, and I think I may also lean this way on the Isa 14:9, 26:14 passages now too.  Luke 11:24 seems to allude to the fact that evil spirits are treated differently than the souls of men when they depart from the body.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

There appears to be a future destruction in store for Egypt based on how I read Ezekiel 30:1-9, Jeremiah 46:2-10, Jeremiah 25:19, and Daniel 11:42.  Therefore, the possibility exists for at least some parts of Ezekiel 32 to apply to the future as well.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I think I need to make an important correction to my own comments here.  Above, I mistakenly wrote that I lean towards the view that the word "dead" or "rapha" (in this particular case, Isa 14:9, 26:14) may simply mean (departed "SPIRITS" of normal, unsaved, dead men).  I think the correct terminology would be "SOULS" instead of "spirits", since men are only born of the spirit by being born again supernaturally.  In other words, an unsaved man is dead spiritually, and only has a soul, or possibly an evil spirit that may have gained an entrance, but when we are born again, we actually become "the sons of God", and  obtain the spirit part of us, which is directly from God, just like the "soul" that also comes directly from God, but is joined at conception.  Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I think it's more technically accurate to view it this way?

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The Bible commentaries I’ve looked at with regards to those
verses don’t really attempt to define the term beyond how the term is translated in the text. They
speak of the "rapha" as individuals (i.e. kings, tyrants,
etc-particularly in Isaiah 14:9).  I’m
not sure how to further define the term beyond the meaning “the dead”.  Regardless of what the correct definition is, the individuals spoken in Isaiah 14:9 and Isaiah 26:14 appear to be
wicked.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Well, I just realized I need to make another correction to my own assumptions here.  I guess that means I must be learning something, huh?  Here's what I came across that has shaken the foundations of my view of John 5:28-29.  I was speculating that it could have been somehow related to when Jesus went (the same day of his crucifixion) to either Sheol??? (1Pet 3:18-20, Eph 4:8?), or Abraham's Bosom (if that is what is meant by Paradise???) Luke 23:43, John 20:17, Eph 4:8? to "lead captivity captive" and "preach to the spirits in prison", and having also taken one of the thieves on the cross with Him to "Paradise", but this could not have been to heaven, since John 20:17 says he had not yet ascended to the Father.   Daniel 12:2 and Rev 20:5-6 seem to shed more light on the passage in John 5:28-29, in my opinion.  In other words, these may be two completely different events, that have nothing to do with one another.  This sort of makes me lean away from the view that the "dead" (as in either the souls of normal, human, wicked, dead men, or the evil spirits of the rephaim) were somehow raised inbetween the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ.  I hope I haven't lost anybody in the technicalities of this, but I'm just trying to be very precise.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

You're free to correct yourself whenever you feel there is something that needs to be corrected.

Connie said...

I don't know if this will be of any help to you, but this is how I understand some of what you have been discussing.  Hades (the place of the dead) has two compartments.  Sheol is the place reserved for the unrighteous, and paradise was the place reserved for the righteous before Christ died on the cross.  It would appear according to Scripture that it is located underneath or in the center of the earth.  The parable of the rich man and Lazarus tells us that the two compartments were separated by a great gulf so that they could not cross between.  The reason people had to go to paradise, is because Christ had not yet died for the atonement of their sins, therefore they could not come into the presence of God.  We do have a spiritual body as well as a physical one and it is the manifestation of the spiritual body that we inhabit until the resurrection, when we will receive a new glorified corporeal type of body.  When Christ died, he descended into Hades or Hell - but the paradise side - to preach to those who had died before, as even those who were righteous needed to accept Him as their Savior.  When he was resurrected, he took those who had been captive in paradise to heaven, as they now could enter into the presence of God, but still only in spiritual bodies (as we now do when we die).  At the time of Christ's return there will be a resurrection of the righteous at which time the dead in Christ will receive their glorified bodies, and those few who are still alive will be raptured and escape death to receive their bodies right then.  At the end of the millennium, God will resurrect the wicked for judgment and throw them in the lake of fire.  Sometimes the way the two resurrections are spoken about it seems that they are at the same time, but they aren't.  Revelation clarifies that for us.  Just as the Jews think there are two Messiahs - a suffering one and a kingly one each with one coming, we now understand from the revelation of Christ's coming and the New Testament that there is only one Messiah, but with two comings, and those comings are 2,000 years apart.  Some things are progressive revelation.

As for answering the question as to whether Christ entered Sheol to preach to the wicked dead, He may very well have, to make sure they were without excuse on the day of judgment.  Everyone except Noah's family seems to have had some angelic blood in their system and the jury is still out on whether or not they qualify for salvation, although I have recently come across some information that has given me reason to think that they may, as they have inherited the sins of their father's like they did Adam's, but they are still part human and not the ones who chose the original sin. That's just speculation though.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Thanks Connie for taking the time to share your thoughts on the matter. I hope it helps ClosetPrayerSeeker.

Julian said...

that is why these type of spirits hiss like snakes, they where the fallen race, Reptilians, possibly what was here before or during our early evolution, i have seen them, one of them before.one person i saw in a mental hospital, one of the most highly possessed persons i have ever seen, he talked to himself about snakes to quote "their all snakes don't trust them" repeating over and over he said, then he changed, and i felt i was being watched by a dark powerfull force, it had a good laugh at seeing an high angelic being bought to it's knees. what we must understand here is that it is now living out it's experience through us because we are fighting killing each other, wiping out peoples energys (souls), it wants to utterly wipe out the human soul, consume it, so it makes us live it's suffering or it's plan so to speak, understand?, and there is a good chance by the time this is over there will be no one left!! i feel these forces are building up for one massive attack on peoples energys, which will result in people, mankind coming to their knees,!! many people will be bed ridden and society will not be able to operate, in otherwords everything will come to one hell of a stop, i feel that this is not too far away now, we are going to face some terrible dark forces, people like SAI BABA (SATAN) in human form, have already put these forces well in place. we can see this in the leaders, and system of war mongering all over the planet. all this is caused by the very dark Ruleing class. but would we really want to live in a world that was this dark anyway? things must change, there are some beautiful things mankind has created also, not all things are bad there is much good knowledge, understanding, science and many good people to be saved, working together that will save us!!. 

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The end times will be a difficult time on Earth, but it is important
to recognize that evil cannot win.  God
is in control.  Satan cannot win the
battle between good and evil.  There will
be survivors

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Connie, I agree with you on each point, and that matches my escatological view as well.  However, it doesn't really clear up the questions I have from the text.  I.E., where did the millions (or even billions?) of people go that were tainted with "angel blood", and who perished either before or at the time of the flood of Noah?  Did they all go to Sheol, or were they (their evil spirits) allowed to roam the earth seeking rest?  Were some or all of them ressurrected to a type of judgment (roaming the dry places of the earth)?  If so, why were some kept in Sheol and other allowed to roam?  See the problem?  You brought up a very interesting conjecture, however.  That is "Did some of the evil spirits/souls in Sheol have a chance at redemption if they trusted and believed in Christ?"  Also, "Did the righteous souls in Abraham's Bosom have a chance to reject Christ?"  Believe me, I don't want to believe this, since it actually kind of scares me to think of it, but I only bring it up since you mentioned that the jury was still out on it?  Also, that opens up another terrifying door.  Can a righteous "son of God" (I'm referring to believers that have been redeemed and glorified) have the opportunity to rebell against God after Satan is released at the end of the Millenial Reign?  This has always terrified me, since I know what is in my own heart, and the sin and deception that I'm susceptible to.  It might sound kind of crazy to think of a glorified believer with a perfect nature (no sin) who, given the opportunity, would fall right back into the mess that he has been redeemed out of.  But, isn't that what we kind of do when we rebell against God in our sins here on earth now (as redeemed, but not yet glorified son's of God)?  I may be way off here, and I actually hope that I am, if you know what I mean.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Okay, I'm feeling the need to make another correction to my earlier post.  Here's what I came across.  Above I wrote that I felt that the Rev 20:5-6 passage somehow related to the John 5:28-29.  I don't believe that any more. But, I still think the Daniel 12:2 passage may.  After re-reading these passages, I really think there may be something to this theory or conjecture that there was more to incident of Jesus' visit to Abraham's Bosom (possibly even to Sheol) than most of us might be aware of.  The reason for my view is the following.  I'm sticking my neck out here, so be kind to me, since I may be off on this.  But here's why.  Please excuse the capital letters in this instance.  I'm not shouting.  I'm only trying to emphasize those parts of the text that, when taken literally, make the difference in conveying my point.  In John 5:28-29 says that "AN HOUR is coming in which ALL WHO ARE IN THE TOMBS shall hear His voice, AND SHALL COME FORTH; those who did the GOOD DEEDS to a RESURRECTION OF LIFE, those who committed the EVIL DEEDS to a RESURRECTION OF JUDGMENT."  I'm trying to think of any other resurrection like this (when both the good and bad hear him at the same time, and both are simultaneously rewarded accordingly).  Maybe I'm missing something or forgetting another passage.  If so, I stand corrected.  

Connie said...

I thought I had clicked on reply to answer your comment, but when it posted, it didn't post to you, so I just want you to know that I did respond, it is just at the end of the list of comments.  I'm having glitches with my computer for some reason and it is acting all wacky.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I agree with you on John 5:28-29.  I see the first and second resurrections coming at a
different time.


                                                      


I also agree with you about those who have glorified
bodies not rebelling during the Millennium. 
Revelation 20 talks about Satan deceiving the nations.  Isaiah 65:20 implies there will still be some sin
during the Millennium as death will still be present.  I think it will be those who live in the
nations and are prone to sin during the Millennium that could be vulnerable to
Satan’s deception at the end of 1000 years.

Connie said...

I totally agree on the nations being the ones who are prone to sin and will rebel against God at the end of the 1000 years.  We are told that Jesus will execute judgment daily.  After 1000 years of Him ruling with a rod of iron, there will be a lot of people just itching to rebel. If the majority of the world rejects Him now, imagine how they will hate Him when He rules so strictly and they have to worship Him against their will. I guess that is why the glorified saints will have to be judges.  People will have to be kept in line.  Just because Satan is in chains doesn't remove man's sinful nature.  People won't have to have him around to be tempted.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I think relatively little is understood about the rebellion at the end of the 1000 years. One of my goals in my ongoing studies is to account for what's going on in Revelation 20:7-9.

Connie said...

I have a feeling that Ez. 38-39, as we had mentioned before in other discussions, has a lot of info about it, but until the first fulfillment of those prophecies take place, and I don't think they have yet, we don't know what refers to coming Gog/Magog war and what refers to the last rebellion.  I'm sure there are other prophecies that will also seem relevant to that time as that day approaches, but it will be that generation that sees it, not us, just as we see the prophecies that relate to our time, but the people who lived back in Bible times would not understand them. We don't need to understand what is scheduled for then, because it doesn't relate to us now. So God may not give understanding about that time, even though the information might be under our noses.  I think in some cases He treats it as a need to know basis, and all the studying in the world won't reveal it if He doesn't think we need to know.  What He is concerned with is that we understand our own times.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

My viewpoint on Ezekiel 38 and Ezekiel 39 has changed
drastically since the start of the year. Without giving too much away (as I still have to write a series of detailed articles about the topic), I think it is possible to distinguish between aspects which
are fulfilled during the end times and aspects which are fulfilled in that
future time.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

You've got me curious.  I'll have to take a look at those passages again, I guess.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Thanks for your reply, Connie.  I pretty much follow you all the way through on this.  You present good logic to back up your points.  There's just a couple things that I need to go back and research again.  

One of your points that I would beg to differ on (but I'm not sure where the passage is) is that there are only two resurrections.  I have heard someone teaching (not sure if it was Dr. Chuck Missler or Perry Stone) that there will be a translation or resurrection of the 144,000 Jews that have been sealed, where they are caught up to God during the Tribulation?  Like I said, I need to go back and check that reference to make sure I know what I'm talking about here.  But, if that is true then wouldn't that make at least three resurrections?  And, that's not including the souls from Sheol (captivity lead captive) taken to heaven with Christ after the resurrection.  Wouldn't that also be counted as a type of resurrection?  Although, as far as the John 5:28-29 passage, that could certainly be speaking of two separate events with a gap in between.The other thing I'm not so sure of, even though you present a very good case for it, is that glorified saints won't be tempted to rebel against God after the Millenium.  I guess my main reasoning for this, albeit I have to admit I don't really have scripture to back this up at the moment, is that Satan was created perfect, and so were the angels that rebelled.  I guess they must have had a will (like us) or sin would not have been an option.  Since the angels are also known as the "sons of God", even the fallen one's were, and since we (as believers in Christ) are now the "sons of God", what's to say that we could not at some future time be presented with an opportunity?  Another thing to ask is "how can we be so certain that other angels haven't fallen since the first batch that Satan led astray?"  Actually, we know he was able to deceive 1/3 (I think it is?), but we don't know how long this took.  It is mentioned in one of the book of Enoch that a 2nd group of angels fell, who were involved in creating Nephilim with human women, and they made their earthly decent at Mount Herman, specifically at a place called Ardis, which was at the top.  Now, this is not scripture, so I won't pretend to even be dogmatic at all about this theory, but I guess it just serves to feed the logic that, possibly, Satan would be a good enough deceiver to cause a few "sons of God", fresh from the Millenium, to attempt a similar rebellion???

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I think you are probably right here.  But remember, the angels that rebelled (as well as Lucifer) were created perfect.  To my knowledge they had no sin nature to begin with, nor were they weeping or with sadness either.  In fact, there may have been some that were deceived after Satan's initial rebellion.  But, maybe we won't have to endure the same choices (will to obey or disobey) that the angels do, because of our subsequent glorification and elevation to a higher level than angels after the rapture (1Cor 6:3)??

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Boy, you can sure say that again!  Very few teachers or scholars try to tackle this one.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Revelation 11:15-18 indicates that the saints will be judged/given their reward prior to the start of the Millennium.  It's hard for me to see how the saints will be subject to being deceived during the Millennium after judgment has been made about them.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I'm not aware of any passages which suggest the 144,000 will be resurrected. My understanding is that the 144,000 receive a seal which identifies them as God's property and are given divine protection as demonstrated by the fact that those who do not have the seal of God are subject to the pain of the fifth trumpet judgment (Revelation 9:4).

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

I agree Connie. Very great insights you put down. I don't see evidence for a pre-trib rapture either. Rather it's part of the deception in these last days. When tribulation comes to the church, those who are not prepared will fall away just as Paul stated in 2 Thessalonians 2. The love of many will grow cold and brother will betray brother, father will betray children, children will betray father, etc. 

The sealing of the 144,000 is very significant. I never equated them with being part of the wilderness deliverance of Revelation 12 but I will need to study some more to see what God reveals. I do know that the the wilderness deliverance will be the only arc of safety in the last days though. That is the only place where believers in Jesus Christ will find shelter during the great tribulation. Everybody else outside of the wilderness deliverance will be subject to the wrath of the serpent. The chances of survival outside of the wilderness are miniscule. There will be pockets of surviviors, but they will have endured unimaginable suffering.

That is why it is imperative that believers get to Israel. God says that He will gather all the seed of Israel in the last days and sift them. The church has been grafted into the branch as a wild olive tree and we are made partakers of all the promises given to Abraham as children of faith. Therefore those in the church of Philadelphia will also be part of the wilderness deliverance. God says that he will keep that remnant of believers from the hour of trial, which is the time of Jacobs trouble.

God has clearly marked out the path of deliverance in His word. Now it's up to us that we put our feet to faith by believing God and His word. Not some cunningly devised fable, but every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. Noah had to build an ark, Lot had to get out of Sodom, Daniel had to defy the ways of this world, the 3 Hebrew boys had to be true to God; and just like them we have to take a stand and do whats right in these last days. Amen.

Connie said...

If you think Jerusalem is the place to be, you have every right to think so and go there, but personally I don't think it is a good idea to get to Jerusalem now, as when antichrist declares himself God, people will be slaughtered by the thousands there (as well as elsewhere as time goes by) as his troops go through the city.  I think the time to go to Jerusalem is after the tribulation is cut short and the world is preoccupied with the trumpet judgments, especially the 5th one. It is my belief that the woman in the wilderness is speaking strictly of Jewish people, not Christians, as the woman stands for Israel (non-Messianic, but believers in God) in my understanding. So Christians in Jerusalem would not be under that umbrella.  That is why Satan goes after Christians, after the woman escapes into the wilderness and he can't get to her.  That is not to say that there won't be Philadelphians that will be protected during this time in places around the world, I think there will be, but Jerusalem does not seem to be the place they should be during that time for that to occur in my opinion.  You are entitled to your opinion though.

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

Interesting Connie. I see Israel as the safest place to be in these last days prior to the abomination of desolation. Right now I am located in Mystery Babylon and the last warning God gives to those who live in Babylon is to flee to Jerusalem.

"Ye that have escaped the sword, go away, stand not still: remember the LORD afar off, and let Jerusalem come into your mind." Jeremiah 51:50


God also gave instructions to those who are wise, listening, and who will be living in Judea at the time of the abomination of desolation. The instructions were given by the Lord Jesus Christ on the Mount of Olives in Matthew 24:15-20. Daniel 11:41 also gives the route of escape for those who flee to the mountains. And once in the land of Jordan, God will deliver those who have fled in the wilderness deliverance spoken of in  Revelation 12.

Is God able to do anything? Of course. Can God deliver from any point on earth for the wilderness deliverance spoken of in Revelation 12? Yes He can. But my heart is leading me to move to Israel. God has told me that my destiny is there. I have a work to accomplish there for the Lord Jesus Christ. What that work is? I don't know yet. Once I get there I will know though.

But the first order of business for me is to finish the work God has given me to do in Mystery Babylon and that is to preach the soon coming destruction of it. Do you live in America connie?

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I agree that Jerusalem would not be a safe place seek refuge and that the woman in the wilderness is strictly speaking of Jewish people. 

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

You may be able to survive in the land of Israel during the first 3 1/2 years of the seventieth week of Daniel without too much trouble with the "covenant with many" in place. However, I believe that will change once the abomination of desolation is established.

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

I agree and when the AOD happens, that is when you must flee to the wilderness.

"15When
you therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by
Daniel
the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoever reads, let him
understand:)
16Then let them which be in Judea flee into the mountains:"

Jesus Christ gives this warning for those who will be living in Judea at this time. They will have direct knowledge of the event and will be able to react the quickest, which is to RUN IMMEDIATELY without looking back. Remember lots wife!

If your living someplace else that is outside of Judea when this event happens, there are no instructions given about what to do. The only instructions given is to refuse the mark of the beast because that will be coming next. But those who are in Judea are given an escape plan. And I believe that escape plan will lead to the deliverance spoken of in Revelation 12. Once that escape plan is realized and complete, Revelation 13 comes next and all those who are outside of that deliverance will be forced to endure it.

Connie said...

I do live in America, but my instructions are to remain here for now.  If yours are to go to Israel, then by all means you must go, as if God has something for you to do there you are obliged to do it. However, are you aware they are not letting avowed Christians move there to live?  At least that is what I have been hearing. I have heard they are only letting in Jews.  Even Messianic Jews are not welcome. My instructions as I understand them at this point is that I am to remain here until after the tribulation (provided I survive it).  I do not believe every Christian is guaranteed surviving that time.  There are a vast majority of Christians who will die.  While the Philadelphians will survive, the Smyrnans, who are as equally righteous as the Philadelphians, are martyred. (Not that am saying I am so righteous, I see myself as sinful, but I at least have an ear to hear.)  So even some who are on target with the Lord will not survive. Nor do I believe that every Christian is called to go to Jerusalem at this time.  Yes, we must flee Babylon(and some debate who that is) but the time appointed to do so may vary for each Christian who is called to do so, depending on the job they are to do, until the time of her destruction demands that all those who are going to leave, go.  My job is for here, as far as I know at this time.  Will my job have to do with Jews?  I am pretty sure the answer is yes.  God began calling me into a Messianic or Hebraic Christianity a number of years ago, but I didn't make the  switch over until a few years ago.  I know the reason is that I needed to familiarize myself with Judaism (albeit my worship style is not orthodox Jewish as some Messianic Christians do, it is based on New Testament Scriptures and the rules laid out there, not the Torah regulations) and the holy days, Sabbath, etc.

It is obvious you feel strongly about going to Israel.  I hope things work out for you, as I know the country will not welcome you with open arms, if they let you in at all.  As a visitor? Yes. As an immigrant? Probably not.

Connie said...

I don't think Israel is letting Christians move there anyhow, so it's a moot point for Christians at this time regardless of what they believe.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I'll be okay. I live in a location that has the exact same climate as Israel.

Connie said...

One piece of advice.  If you are not Jewish or living a Jewish lifestyle, I suggest that you change your lifestyle immediately and learn about their ways and the country, if you want to live in Israel.  It is a Jewish nation and you will have culture shock otherwise. If they even consider your application to move there, they will ask why you want to move.  If you say that you are there to spread the gospel, be a missionary, preach or anything of that nature, you will be rejected immediately. You have to have what they consider a legitimate reason and spiritual ones will not be acceptable. Just a heads up.

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

I do too. I live in So Cal.

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

I am aware of that Connie. Thank you. God has already opened up a door for me that will allow me to visit real soon. When I go to visit I am trusting that God will reveal to me the means to the end that He has for me there. That's why we walk by faith and not by sight. God will move mountains if you believe. The power is all in God and it's up to us for us to believe in that power! I'm trusting in God for great things Connie! And I believe that God is going to make a way for the redeemed to pass over! I believe a great migration to Israel is in store for those who love Him. I believe it with all my heart. Amen.

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

"Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations, I
will be exalted in the earth. The LORD of hosts is with us; the God of
Jacob is our refuge." Psalm 46:10-11

Not Isaiah.

Connie said...

As of this time, I believe America is Babylon unless and until I am shown differently.  How do I reconcile staying here? I have been told to stay for one thing. I try to be obedient as you do.  As for the timing of her demise, I will look at the verses you have offered, but God has shown me a different timing than you.  I see America as still having a purpose that God has yet to carry out.  What is important at the moment is that we do what we are told to do.  If you are to go, God will provide the way for you to stay, but I am not called to go.  Nor do I think a mass exodus of Christians from America would be accepted by Israel at this time.  I think when the time for Christians to come out of Babylon arises, those who are to flee will hear God's unmistakable call and will flee. I have not heard that call.  It is not because I do not think there is a time to flee, I understand that is the directive, but I do not think the time is now for the rest of us, though it may be for you.

As for changing to a Judaic/Messianic/Hebraic, whichever title you prefer, Christianity, it probably started about 17 or so years ago when I first came into contact with Jews for Jesus.  It peaked my interest and I found myself pulled toward it, but I was not aware of Messianic Gentile Christianity at the time. We lived in an area at the time which has a heavy occultic influence in the way of New Age centers, Buddhist, UFO hot spot, etc. and the churches had all become heavily apostate. We were home-churching (greatest thing we ever did for our children's spiritual growth).  A few years later we moved to where we are now, which is a very rural area.  To get our children into a Christian academy for high school (I had homeschooled them until then) we had to belong to a church, so we attended a small church until they were out of school.  By then I had become immersed in studying how paganism had entered the church and knew that we had to move back to a Judaic form of Christianity to be pleasing to the Lord, although there are no Messianic congregations around here. I believe there are 10 commandments, not 9. We are currently back to homechurching.  It's a little lonely for fellowship, which is why I like this blog.  I get a lot of people hitting my own blog, but never any interaction.  Nobody makes comments like they do on this one. Probably not enough interest, although I did get a couple of comments by a well-known Christian author who stumbled onto it, amazingly enough.  It's not a lot of interaction commenting here, but it's better than nothing.  I'm looked upon as an apostate by most of the Christians I know locally, for my beliefs, so I leave to your imagination as to how they interact with me.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Anyone interested in reading Connie's thoughts on a variety of Bible prophecy matters can find her blog at the following link: http://endtimesstudies.blogspot.com/

Connie said...

I wasn't looking for a plug, honestly.  I was just making a comment as to why I spend so much time interacting on your blog.  But thanks for the plug anyhow.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I know, but I think you deserved one. Besides, I don't think many people know you have your own blog.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I need to go back and figure out where I heard that, because I could be way off on that point.  In the absence of any real scripture to back it up, I'm going to stand with you on this.  

I appreciate all the responses, especially the lenghy one's from Connie.  

It appears that I opened up a can of worms on this too.  What I mean is that some doctrines surfaced that I had no idea were being held here.  The one that comes to mind, and that was actually quite shocking to me, is that the Pre-Trib rapture is an "end times deception".  The other was that Mystery Babylon might be America.  I'll spare you the detail here about why I hold a very different view on the first issue, since it would require lost of scripture, not to mention time.  Maybe in the future I may decide to lay out my scripture backing for this, but for now I'll just summarize that I feel very confident that many Christians (possibly even the majority, or all Christians) will not have to go through any of the 7 year Tribulation (doesn't mean we'll be exempt from some heavy trials and persecution leading up to it).  I also know there has to be a literal "End Times" Babylon located on the banks of the Euphrates river which will receive its judgement in a total destruction, never to be inhabited again (right now it's inhabited, and being rebuilt).  Mystery Babylon, however, appears to allude to the Roman Catholic Church, but on this last point I'm feeling a bit less qualified to be as dogmatic, since I haven't actually read Dave Hunt's book "A Woman Rides The Beast", and I've got some more studying ahead of me for sure.

I want to say that I really appreciate all the different views, and feedback to my questions, as it really makes me think and search the Word more dilligently.  And, I can say that I've already learned a ton.  Thanks again.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Okay.  Great comment and insight!  Thanks for your input.  To answer your question, Perry Stone is definitely Pre-Trib rapture.  I'm quite familiar with most of his teaching.  I'm very solid on this issue, but I'm open to other viewpoints, and will always study to see if those other views can hold water.  So far, nobody has been able to shake me on Pre-Trib, since I see plenty of evidence from both Old and New Testaments.  Your other points sound good, but I need to "study like a Berean" to "see whether those things be so", if you know what I mean.  I'll be back later to add some follow up comments.  Thanks.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Thanks for commenting. Just to be clear, the views expressed by people who comment are their own. I may not necessary agree with everything each person says all the time.  With regards to the recent discussion on Babylon the Great, the reason I haven't commented more is that I plan to work on an article providing my full thoughts on the issue.  I don't want to give away too much of what I think because I know I'll need to use all the verses that are available to defend the view I plan to present.

Connie said...

Just so you understand where I am coming from so that you can appreciate that at least I am not unfamiliar with the defense for pre-trib, (although I imagine everyone that comes here knows it, as it is so prevalent)  I was brought up pre-trib in a church where it was actually a topic that was discussed and taught as a major part of the church's teachings.  By that I mean that we had every well-known eschatology teacher known in that day come and do week long seminars on the pre-trib doctrine.  I have more tapes (we used audio tapes in those days before CDs) than you can imagine from every pre-trib teacher going, plus a library full of books.  About 25 years ago, I really started getting into my Bible to study the subject on my own rather than just reading what other people wrote and taught, as I wanted to really have my defenses grounded so I could argue with the post-trib and other groups.  As I studied apart from the directives of commentaries that interpreted everything for me, I came to find verses that could not be reconciled to the teaching, and problems that didn't fit.  The more I studied, the worse it became.  I started going to various pastors (who were pre-trib) to get answers for my dilemma.  Instead they blew me off and said that my problems with the Scriptures were just something I shouldn't worry about.  Well that was not an acceptable answer to me, as I feel all of God's Word is important and should be reconciled to get to the truth.  I then started having serious doubts about what I had been taught and decided to throw everything out and start fresh with no preconceived ideas.  When I did that a whole new understanding of the end times started to take form.  One that included and reconciled all of the Scriptures.  It has taken these 2 1/2 decades of study to get to the understanding that I have now, but I am solidly grounded in my belief now.  If you feel completely sure believing pre-trib, that of course is your privilege, and I have learned that to try to convince a pre-tribber otherwise will just lead to wrangling that would not be productive.  I would like you to understand how I came to my conclusions though, so that you may understand why those of us who do not take your view have reasons for the views we take.  As Prophecy Proofs so generously already posted my blog address, I don't feel funny asking you to take a look at my blog to just understand how I came to my position.  You don't have to agree, just understand.  I warn you that it is as long as a book and that to really grasp what I have written, you have to actually start at the introduction and work your way through the archives as I have laid out a very organized defense for what I believe.  Skipping through it will only bring up questions that are probably already answered in my writings somewhere.  If you have the time and inclination, please go to endtimesstudies.blogspot.com and check it out. (watch the double "ss" in the middle)

Connie said...

Could you elucidate for me how you see an earthquake in Jer. 51:29-33 and how you know the rumor in Jer. 51:45-46 is supposed to be next year?  I do not see the earthquake in that passage, unless you are seeing the word "tremble" as an earthquake.  I see that as meaning the people of the land trembling with fear and sorrow, not the earth shaking. And I see no time designated for the rumor.  How did you come to the conclusion that it is next year? Just curious.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

As you wait for a response Connie, I think a similar comment was made here:

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2011/09/observation-about-interesting-time-we.html#comment-304050052

Connie said...

Thanks. I understand.

Connie said...

No need to explain the references after all. You already did in another post.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Okay, good point.  Something just came to mind, and I think you hit on the key issue here, which is the issue of judgment.  The real difference between us and angels (at least in our earthly state) is that Jesus Christ died in our place, as a man, taking the penalty and judgment that we deserved.  Since He died for all the sins (past, present, and future) of any human being who puts his faith in Him, that means that there is nothing that we could ever do while in our physical body to disqualify us from eternal life (rewards is another story, however).  The angels have no reconciliation, that we know of, so those that rebelled have no provision for judgment, except to bear it themselves.  Once saved, we immediately become the "sons of God", even while we are still on earth in our sinful bodies.  Of course, we will eventually have new, glorified bodies, but that is more of a formality at that point.  So, then we can see from this perspective that God will eventually bring us back full circle into what Adam and Eve had experienced in the Garden,  and maybe even in a similar way, what the other "sons of God" had experienced before their fall.  Whether or not we will have exactly what they had is, of course, speculative.  Great, so now we are back where things started.  Do you see what I'm getting at?  Who's to say there could not be another rebellion of some kind later?  Of course, one could just as easily argue the contrary.  

This judgment that you are referring to in Rev 11:15-18 looks like it could be the Bema Seat judgment (for rewards), but it appears that this verse lumps a whole lot of events into one statement, so that these may not necessarily be in sequential order here.  The Bema Seat is based on our performance while in an earthly body which resides inside Time and Space.  There are some passages (2 John 1:8, Rev 3:11, Col 2:18) which seems to indicate that it may be possible to suffer loss of rewards that are already waiting for us in heaven (outside of Time and Space, in eternity).  This would appear to us as if yet future while we reside in our earthly state, but in actuality it could be happening simultaneously, since from God's perspective (outside of the dimensionality of Time altogether) it has already happened.  Just because we will have been judged with regard to rewards doesn't mean we couldn't undergo another test after that point.  In other words, it doesn't seem to make sense to me that we would suddenly become robots without a will of our own, just because we are now complete "sons of God" inhabiting eternity with new bodies.  Yes, our sin nature will have been delt with and removed, but remember, even Adam and Eve were created perfect, without a sin nature, just as were Satan, and all the other angels who sinned.  The only difference I can come up with is the fact that Jesus ever lives to intercede on our behalf, thus He would remain our redeemer even in eternity.

DoUwant2go2heaven? said...

God states the reason why rebellion will not rise up again after He has put all things under His feet in Nahum 1:9

"What do ye imagine against the LORD? He will make an utter end; affliction shall not rise up the second time."

God says that He will make an "utter end" of all things that offend against Him. Thus God concludes the verse by saying that it (rebellion) will not rise up a 2nd time.

God further illustrates this point in Revelation chapters 21 & 22. God says that He will dwell with man in the eternal state, thus all things that offend are outside of the dwelling place of God which is the New Jerusalem. Nothing that is unpure, sinful, vile, evil, or abominable will ever enter into that eternal rest. Thus God clearly gives us evidence that sin will be incapable of rising up again.

This age has demonstrated to all those who will reign and rule with the Lord forever and ever that sin is an offense to God, thus when all the saints are translated at the 2nd coming we will forever be glorified and incapable of doing evil ever again.

Those born during the kingdom age, under ideal conditions with Jesus Christ as the visible King, will also be shown the devastating effects of rebellion when the final rebellion is squashed at the end of the 1,000 year reign of Jesus Christ.

Then God will be vindicated when He has demonstrated to all of creation that rebellion always ends in judgment. So when the final judgment takes place, all mouths will be stopped because God will true, righteous, and holy in His judgment upon all those who chose to rebel against Him. After the final judgment is over the final thing thrown into the lake of fire is death itself. Thus, the very thing that is the direct result of rebellion, death, will be forever cast away into the lake of fire; never to see the light again because affliction will not rise up again.

All the saints who will be accounted worthy to partake in the eternal kingdom will be perfected and incapable of sinning. We will all have full knowledge throughout the trials that we went through in this age, that sin and rebellion brings death. Knowing that and finally being able to dwell with God Himself forever, the thought of rebellion will not even come into our hearts or minds. Because if it did, that would make God out to be a liar. And of course He is not. Thus He can tell us the end from the beginning because He already sees it. Amen.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

The three verses you mention seem to relate to the time prior to the transformation of our bodies. I place the judgment mentioned in Revelation 11:15-18 after the transformation of our bodies. I don't see any indication in the Bible that those who are in an eternal state will face another test. The Bible would have mentioned it if there was going to be one more test for those in an eternal state.

Connie said...

Several people, myself included have given you verses and shown you that the Scriptures say that there will not be rebellion in eternity.  May I ask what makes you think there will be?  Other than your own doubts that is?  Is someone teaching you this?  Why is it so hard for you to accept that once your decision is made final by death that you would want to go back on that? Having stood by God and endured all the temptation and tribulation that this world has to offer, not to mention the coming persecution, which I hope to endure by God's grace, I certainly would have no inclination to rebel against God once I have a perfect, sinless body and live in His presence in a sinless world, especially knowing what the consequences of rebellion are.  I doubt the angels understood the consequences when they rebelled.  There was no precedent. We on the other hand know exactly what waits for those who reject God. Do you doubt your own ability to want to continue in a relationship with God?  I am not looking to offend you, I am just trying to understand why you can't accept salvation as being eternal when God clearly states that it is.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I see what you are saying.  The potential loss of rewards that these verses speak of (IIJohn 1:8, Rev 3:11, Col 2:18)  would be incurred while we are on earth, while the actual ceremony for receiving any such rewards would occur at the Bema Seat (IICor5:10) which is a future event (according to earth time) that is in actuality an event which happens outside of Time (in eternity).  

Exploring this idea further, we see that these rewards are stored up for us in heaven (Matt 6:20), either immediately as we earn them, or retrospectively (since they are actually stored up in eternity, it is kind of a mute point), but, either way, we can definately lose them in that location (eternity) based on our activities in the "here and now".  Aparently the bad deeds we do (as Christians) may have some effect on the good deeds we have already done in the body, possible canceling out an inheritance earned already? (IICor5:10) I'm referring to the last part of the verse where it mentions bad deeds in relation to the Judgment Seat of Christ.  Obviously it wouldn't be a punishment, so it must be applied to our credit for reward or inheritance?  Here is a quote from a good website http://www.thebemaseat.com/

"At the bema seat, Jesus Christ will bring to light every deed, good or bad that each believer has done on earth since he or she became a Christian. Every Christian will be rewarded based on his words, deeds, and faithfulness (see 1 Cor. 3 v.11-14)."

As far as facing another test once we are in our eternal state, my doubts are starting to fade away little by little, and I think you are probably right on this.  

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Hey, thanks for your reply.  I do have to agree with you, especially on your last point, that God, Who called us to Himself, is certainly able to see us on to completion and to have the foresight in our predestination, knowing the end from the beginning.  Perhaps this is the strongest evidence in support that I've heard so far.  There is only one small point that I would quibble with you on, and it is such a minor point actually.  The first scripture you used in your defense seems to be addressing the destruction of Nineveh and the deliverance of Judah, so I'm not sure how far I would want to take that in reference to any future rebellions.  But I think you have made your point clear enough even without needing that verse.  Thanks again for your insight.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I hope your doubts continue to fade away. 

Just a heads up, there seems to be a technical glitch that is delaying responses from showing up. If you were wondering why your comments weren't showing up on "Recent Comments" earlier, it was due to the glitch.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

I think I've touched a nerve.  Sorry.  We're really not as far apart on doctrine as you might think.  On the point of suffering, I agree with you that the Church should not imagine itself exempt from suffering as we approach the End.  In fact, the Church has suffered since its inception, so I'm on par with you there.  Speaking from my own experience, I think there is a tendency for many American's (of those holding the Pre-Trib view) to hold an attitude of indifference regarding suffering.  Therefore, I could see how someone might jump to a different conclusion on eschatology out of sheer disgust.  There's no doubt that America has enjoyed the blessing of God (I believe largely because of its past relationship with Israel and as a center for spreading the Gospel), and its people have enjoyed a prosperity unknown to many parts of the world.  I'm actually not living in America right now, even though I was born there, so from my perspective, I can see how some American's may be up for a rude awakening.  Believe me when I say that I have often found myself dreaming of the way things used to be, when I lived there.  

As far as doubting my salvation, I can see how you arrived at that conclusion, based on my comments.  Deep down, I don't really doubt my salvation, at least as scripture lays it out, but I guess I was just pondering the possibilities of Free Will and how far it would be allowed to go in Eternity.  This is kind of a mystery to me, and a very deep subject that inspires my curiosity.  I guess I'll just have to trust in God's will to keep me willing.

You hit on a very key issue, which could be summed up by asking the following question.  "How does our escatalogy affect our daily attitudes, decisions and actions?"  For this you have a very strong arguement in your favor.  An advantage of having the Mid or Post Trib belief is that one would be more mentally prepared (it would seem) for facing trials, testings, and tribulations, so that it could appear to be a "best of both worlds" scenerio.  In other words, even if Jesus appears in a Pre Trib Rapture, they wouldn't have lost anything in being prepared in case He didn't.  In like manner, one disadvantage to holding a Pre Trib belief is that one could become either arrogant or ignorant (if they felt they were either too good for it, or somehow managed to miss out on it), or they could become seriously disillusioned (when suddenly faced with having to endure it), and could become side-lined with unbelief (or even anger) as a result.

Let me be very careful here.  When I say "best of both worlds" and that "they wouldn't have lost anything in being prepared", I'm, of course, playing the devil's advocate against my own view.  Matt 25 paints a very different picture, and shows us that there is much to be lost.  If oil represents the Holy Spirit here, and it often does is throughout scripture, then we need to make sure we stay filled.  When it runs out we need to get refilled.  Also, the doctrine of "imminence" as it pertains to the return of Christ shows up here and other places.  The Second Coming of Christ follows a pre-determined set of events, but the Rapture doesn't.

Vk3eh said...

my view and understand is that these dark forces show themselves as reptiles. they are not to be underestimated they have advanced understand of the human DNA structure,and very advanced methods of mind control, also there understand of consciousness within the human being far in advance of what humans know. problem in the past has been people underestimated these things by a long shot. what people need to understand is the reptiles come from the dark light a sub space dimension, or a type no mans land, they are waiting to launch a massive attack, and that will wipe out 70% of the human race, and the rest will be experimented on. as well as that many people will be teleported into space craft. god or the universe has tried many times to overcome this problem to no avail therefore it has chosen not to reform again, that was it's last go at it.  interestingly enough there are many reptilian beings cloaked in human form, i can confurm this as i have seen them. these demons are observing us and at the right time will reveal themselves when these changes take place, very soon, as one of them said to me quote"your are only another brick in the wall" the most ruthless rubbish imaginable. one of their primary food sources is consuming human flesh and drinking blood, as far as their concerned humans are equal to cattle and they couldn't care what they do to us. they love carving up human babys as they like the fresh new souls to feed off, because they are pure energys.         

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I don't hold the same view as you, but you're entitled to your opinion.

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Wow.  I was just re-reading my post here and was just kind of astounded by the whole thought of both the soul and spirit part of us coming from God.  I know that we are body, soul and spirit, a doctrine that most of us are familiar with, and seems to be supported by the Bible.  But, it just dawned on me that when we are born again (the moment we trust Christ), that part of us also comes directly from God, as did our soul (at conception).  That whole thought just blows my mind, and it helps me with my doubts regarding the whole dilemma of "free will" in eternity.  You see, since it can be argued that our souls and spirits are both eternal (since they both came from God, Who inhabits Eternity),  then our election and calling has to be sure, resting totally in His devine plan, even preceding the moment of our birth.  Unbelievable to think about.  What an awesome God we have!  It  is truly humbling to even consider it!

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Very interesting.  I think the whole Santa clause thing sounds like it fits, for sure.  I just watched an episode of Perry Stone today that really had me sitting on the edge of my seat, wanting to hear the rest, as it ended kind of abruptly. =The episode I'm referring to is called "The Guardians of the Tree of Life".  You can download it free at www.voe.org.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I'm glad to read that your doubts have been eased a bit. :)

Connie said...

Is it just me and how my computer accesses the comments or is everybody having the following problem? Each comment that is responded to keeps getting indented so eventually there is no place left to indent, so the comments completely disappear.  I'm not sure (being so computer challenged) if I need to do something to make it pop out so I can see it.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I've noticed that each reply to a comment gets slightly indented. It does not seem to be a problem until one specific comment has several replies. I do see there is an issue here, so I'll have to see whether this can be solved.  

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I changed it so that it doesn't indent anymore, but comments can still be replied to. Is this better?

Connie said...

Great. Thanks so much and Merry Christmas.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Merry Christmas to you too :)

anonymous said...

in the excerpt of gen. 6:4 instead of giants it is supposed to say nephilims. u can look in any old bible and it wont say giants. but in the newer ones they took out them cuz the priest want u to believe that they are evil beings but they were the heroes of old. and if you look up nephilims, priests and pastors made blogs and articles saying that they are evil cuz they were the children of the fallen angels. so my advice to you is before you post things look in older books cuz now adays they like to change books bcuz they dont want you to know the truth.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I've mentioned how Genesis 6:4 in Hebrew is nephilim in other articles like this one: 

http://prophecyproof.blogspot.com/2010/05/nephilim-part-1-past.html

ClosetPrayerSeeker said...

Need to make a correction to the 2nd paragraph above where I was referencing the TV program with Gina Gershon.  It was actually Belinda Carlisle, not Gina Gershon (I was confused), although Gina was in that same episode, but having a different type of experience.  Sorry for the confusion.

zlldukiso said...

Interesting topic. How do these fallen angels possess their freedom, because according to 2Peter 2:4 and Jude 6-7 they are chained.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

My guess is that more angels fell after the flood

johnathan dough said...

So how would u know if my DNA has not been altered to where I wld not end up having eternal life.

johnathan dough said...

So how would u know if my DNA has not been altered to where I wld not end up having eternal life.

George said...

I think demons are disembodied dinosaurs, which would explain the unusual strength and the portrayal of them with horns.

Mokele Hunt said...

@Julian - Evolution is a lie, and one of Satan's most powerful tools. There are some prominent secular scientists today who confess that they lost their Christian faith after embracing Darwin's theory of evolution. The only "reptilians" that were ever part of creation (dinosaurs aside) were snakes, lizards, crocodiles and turtles. Because of their repulsive appearance, Satan will use demonic spirits that often appear reptilian or snake-like to strike fear into the hearts of men.

Remember, God is in perfect control of the situation on earth, and He and He alone knows when to bring this present world to an end and bring in the 1,000 years of perfect rule under King Jesus.

michael said...

"Sons of God" always refers to angels in the Old Testament. It was God's angels referred to in Job1:6 and NOT "fallen" angels. Satan is a special case as God allowed him to have access to Heaven (the third heaven - God's abode) to act as the accuser of mankind but NOT to abide there. His realm was the earth after the fall. Satan's angels or "demons" do NOT have access to Heaven.
The "sons of God" in Genesis 6 are angels who left Heaven after their revolt to have children who are called Nephelim - Hebrew, Gigantes - Greek. Both words mean fallen ones. They were a satanic corruption of the human gene pool to prevent man's redemption - thus the reason for the flood. Noah was saved because he was "perfect in his generations" - uncontaminated. These children became "men of renown". They were large yes but also highly intelligent with great knowledge. The "fallen" "sons of God" were locked up in Tartatus (see 2 peter 2:4) Note that the rest of Satan's angels are on the earth and called demons in the New Testament. Angels are organized in many ranks like "powers", "principalities", "cherubim", Etc. Satan was a cherubim, the highest rank as described in Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28.
Notice also in Genesis 6:4 "there were Nephilim in those days; AND ALSO AFTER". Jesus said that the end times will be like the "days of Noah" in the kingdom narrative in Matt 24 and 25 so look for a return of the Nephilim in the "end times" which is probabily not far off.

michael said...

Sorry but I feel I need to add a comment to my prior post below on "Sheol", This is the Hebrew "place of the dead" that has two divisions; "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom" and Hades. The Old Testament Saints who died believing in the promised redeemer went to Paradise while everyone else (human NOT angels or "demons") went to Hades. During the time that Christ spent "in the heart of the earth" after the Crucifixion he preached to those in Paradise (including the "thief" who died next to Him) and took them all to Heaven with Him. Those in Hades stay there until the "Great White Throne" judgement after the Millennium. Paradise is empty as all who die in Christ after that go directly to Heaven..None of this has anything to do with angels or demons as they are NOT eligible for redemption. Only a Man can substitute His death in payment for mankind's sins - the "Kinsman Redeemer" - Jesus the Christ. That is the blood line Satan tried to contaminate with the Nephilim so that we could NOT be saved as God promised.

Arnold said...

Wayne,
Your article here shows more ignorance than facts about Fallen Angels and Demons. Luckily we have some interesting comments and information. Maybe you were just trying to open up the topic to learn from others.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Hmmm.... You say my article shows ignorance yet you don't provide any examples of where the ignorance shows up...

DKW said...

§Demons or bad spirits are probably here, no matter their origination, but the 7000 fallen angels and Lucifer are being held captive in a pit in Paradise (the current or 2nd age heaven), until Jehovah commands Michael to throw them down to earth.
It is my humble opinion the great apostasy has begun with the increase in religiosity and most of the signs of the end time being fulfilled, heralding the fore shortened tribulation.§
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Paul said...

Enoch was mentioned in the bible a few times and was blessed enough to be taken up into heaven without having to die, and so my question is why can't the face that he was mentioned in the bible be enough to say Enoch is a credible book we can accept and believe?

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

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Thankful said...

Oh my, I got into something similar and it took me years to figure out what the hell I had gotten into. You are the first person to acknowledge something similar to my own experience. That was helpful beyond words. Yes, God got me out of that wreck as well! I think mine were witches, definitely experienced the evil side of witchcraft used against me. I could feel in a very horrific feel sense the evil spirits coming and going and being sent to attack me.

infowolf1 said...

The Tree of Life was not Jesus, but a physical tree whose fruit and/or leaves would unendingly restore ailing or aging life. Such Revelation says will be restored in the New Jerusalem. Jesus is only metaphorically related to the Tree of Life, He is the God Man, not a tree. The cherub guarding the way was EXPLICITLY STATED to be there to PREVENT humans from getting to it, since they would then live forever in their sin, and circumvent the curse of death on them.

infowolf1 said...

maybe. but the demons may be lesser fallen angels, and the originally higher ranking type angels who fell would be the ones who are called fallen angels. Also there are two issues of binding. On the one hand, a particular group were bound at the time of Noah. (see Peter I forget which one, however this might refer to all the generations even as far back as his time and before, using him as a convenient reference point.)
When Jesus was dead He was in the realm of the dead, in Hades, traversed all its parts punitive and otherwise, announcing the Kingdom of Heaven. Both kerygma an announcement and euangelion an invitation type good news are used, so this preaching to the dead Peter describes would indeed involve possibility of salvation after death.


There are vague references which are more built on in early church traditions of the writers, pointing to satan being bound by Jesus at that time. But obviously not FULLY bound just crippled. Revelation speaks of a time when satan will be so bound he can't even whisper to the remaining unbelieving or backsliding nations, for at least a thousand years after The Second Coming of Jesus Christ.


This has been mishandled as chiliasm in the sense of Jesus' Reign being limited to 1,000 years, which was of course denounced and anathematized in a Church Council in the first several centuries. Jesus' Reign is unending, but will have more than one phase.

infowolf1 said...

Glory to God! but what was the heavy duty occult stuff they were doing? passive waiting for "the holy spirit" to possess them, or something more like ouija board in function if not identical like a pendulum swinging, or automatic writing or conjuring?

infowolf1 said...

I would be very cautious about Tom Horn and Chuck Missler and all that bunch. I go into details in some posts on my blog, http://politicallyunclassifiable.blogspot.com some are recent, some you have to hunt through older posts for.

infowolf1 said...

judging from some titles of some of that kind of music, a few would seem to be intentional or potential invocations to demons. Also, a spirit needs to build up a body to work with. This can be done several ways. Sacrifices of blood are a favorite, but people who do this shit posted on egroups that they had learned that sexual energy (and I would add shed fluids) will do just as well.


In my own experience in keeping some stuff at bay, and researching experiences of others, some essential oils and fresh or dried herbs seem to be entity repellant. I say entity to incl. everything incl. ghosts of the dead and bilocators and "servitors," artificial entities. Lets not get into all that.


Most but not all of these are also anti microbial, antifungal and antibacterial and insecticidal. (An exception is clove oil, which is antimicrobial but attracts entities.)


St. John's Wort (MUST be hypericum perforatum NO OTHER SPECIES) is anti depressant, and the symptoms of depression strongly overlap the symptoms of psychic attack, either from a human or by a spell. (if you use the dry powder on your skin, and sweat gets it wet, it may be useless.)


A girl was oppressed by a spirit who could not be kept away by prayer and fasting, though perhaps she did not do these things from her heart with faith, but as mechanistic efforts. So then another spirit appeared to her, and said to keep fresh St. John's Wort sprig on her. This drove the first spirit away, then the second said to get rid of it, but she was too clever to go for that, and got rid of it also since she wouldn't give up the St. John's Wort.


My guess is that a lot of these chemical measures do something to the human electrical system, that changes our, for lack of a better word, permeability.


However, sin and other open doors to the entities must be eradicated. And while these measures help when faith is weak, faith must be cultivated.


One point, if you use these measures, the number of plants or plant oils used

infowolf1 said...

OOPS, HIT WRONG BUTTON.
The number of plants used, MUST BE AN ODD NUMBER. It can be 3 or 5 or 7 different species but it cannot be an even number or somehow they balance each other out and leave you vulnerable.


There are one or two that do not seem to conflict with but strengthen others and wouldn't count in the count, but I am not sure this is reliable and I don't recall for sure which ones they were. I am out of that situation, a made to order on site laboratory so to speak, a kind of semi haunted house I was living in, and don't intend
to go back to it, or anything similar, or duplicate the situation.


The hoodoo and some witch online sites give instruction in the use of herbs that work AGAINST magic.


Dragon's Blood incense is good.


Don't keep plumbago plants around. There may be some others. DO NOT USE passion flower containing sedatives, as these have harmaline in them which increases telepathy, the opposite of what you want.


Now, my point in all this, is that I suspect the entities, in order to build etheric bodies instead of being pure spirits, in the absence of blood will use dead insect and microbial detritus. This would explain their apparent susceptibility to anti microbial and insecticidal stuff. The body built up would have the limits and susceptibilities of the creature from which it came.


I didn't give them the opportunity to get solid, but my guess is, if this kept up long enough, they would.

infowolf1 said...

polydactylism occurs in animals also, like cats with extra toes. Besides, two big problems. 1st, ONLY Noah was "righteous in his generations," so his wife, sons and daughtersinlaw were NOT purebred humans, if that is what that means.
2. Actually, all it means is that in all the generations since his birth (he was 600 years old when The Flood came) he was the only righteous one. Elsewhere God says that only Noah was found righteous. Different phrasing.
Before anyone goes off hunting nephilim they'd better consider, we probably all got the genes, and we DON'T KNOW (if there was any hybridization) WHAT ORIGINAL PUREBRED HUMANS LOOKED LIKE IN ALL POINTS, to draw comparisons.

infowolf1 said...

nonsense. First off, tares are a spiritual not a physical matter. Secondly, St. Paul in I Corinthians says those who are married unbelievers, bring a grace that covers the unbelievers they are married to and their children.

infowolf1 said...

what case of the Apostle Peter? Are you denying he was a true Christian? Sure he fell, but Christ restored him since he was repentant, and he went on to continue as an Apostle, and doing what Jesus said, "feed my sheep" and wrote two Epistles that are in the NT canon.

Gloria Franks said...

The book of Enoch was a part of the
Jewish teaching and included in the books until the Catholic Church removed it,
it is one of the oldest books dated before the flood and gives accurate account
of what took place on the earth that caused God to wipe out all life on earth.
Demons are condemned to wander the earth they can never enter Gods kingdom and
their creation was not ordained by God but were the actions of the watchers who
disobeyed God and created children who were half human half angel. It is
false to call the book of Enoch unbiblical because it was removed by a religious
body who took it upon themselves to decide what information we the people were
allowed to have. I would trust the Jewish rabbis to give a more accurate
statement on the history of man because these books were written by their
ancestors and in their possession before the catholic church got a hold of it.

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

What evidence exists that the Book of Enoch is dated before the flood? and assuming that the Book of Enoch is accurate (for sake of argument) why would the Lord allow the book to be excluded from the Bible? The Lord is more powerful than those who decided what and what should not be included in the Bible.

Gloria Franks said...

A lamp in the Dark documents the beginning of the
first church Jewish followers of the Messiah Yeshua Christ, they had all the
books of the Torah including the book of Enoch who was a scribe in his time and
yes the man could write! Along with other books removed from the bible by those
who were followers of Constantine, after he possession of the
church he and his followers started to persecute the Jewish believers in
Messiah and forced gentile and Jewish believers to stop practicing all Jewish
holidays that were commanded by God to be observed and to stop all practices
that were deemed too Jewish and instilled pagan holidays in their place. There
are 7 books that I know of that were removed when the Catholic Christians took
control and the book of Enoch is one of them. Have you read the book of Enoch,
have you talked with Jewish Messianic believers about the early church history
and how it was altered, do you know of the persecution and murder of the Jewish
and gentile believers who would not submit to Constantine and his band of
unholy priests, do you know how they turned our Messiah into a non-Jewish,
non-Torah observing gentile?

Gloria Franks said...

Deleting
a comment because the truth makes you uncomfortable will not change that truth.
I stated the true facts on the books that were removed from the bible and
called you out on your statement that the book of Enoch was unbiblical and gave
you facts to verify for yourself. Removing the information I gave is identical
to what the Catholic church has done, you are preventing people from openly
discussing the true history of the bible and its Jewish roots!

You
will never really know the true Messiah until you have spent time with Jewish
believers and they will enlighten you as to why Enoch was removed from book we
call the bible!

You
are presenting yourself as an expert on Demons and their origins without
knowing all the history, the Book of Enoch has always been accepted by the
Jewish community and included in their history, just because it was banned does
not make it untrue!

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

I've spent a lot of time studying the Book of Enoch because I at one time thought it was very intriguing. The prophecy chapters of Enoch reminded me a lot of what was found in Daniel and some of what is found in Revelation. However, it's hard for me to understand how the Lord would let the Book of Enoch and other books not be included in the Bible if it is indeed a part of His word. So many people look to the Bible in its current form as the Word of God. Why would the Lord allow a part of His Word be excluded?

Prophecy Proof Insights said...

Who said I was going to delete your comment? I'm not going to delete it because it may be possible to glean things from the Book of Enoch regardless of whether it's divinely-inspired or not.

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